In Search of Soil-Based Organisms: Good or Bad?

From the Journal of Clinical Microbiology: Bacillus subtilis is a gram-positive, aerobic, spore-forming soil bacterium ubiquitous in the environment. The [supposed] beneficial effects of B. subtilis spores on the balance of the intestinal microflora is the rationale for its general use as a probiotic preparation in the treatment or prevention of intestinal disorders. B. subtilis spores are available in Italy as a pharmaceutical preparation for oral use. Each dose contains a mixture of 10⁹ (ten billion) spores of four distinct antibiotic-resistant derivatives of ATCC 9799 (Enterogermina; distributed by Sanofi Winthrop, Milan, Italy) per vial. The pathogenic potential of B. subtilis is generally described as low or absent. (Which doesn’t make it true – just that it is generally described that way.) Data on the general importance of infections due to B. subtilis are incomplete, since it is a general practice of most microbiological laboratories to discard these strains or to report them as contaminants. Also, in the cause-of-death statistics of the World Health Organization, no data on B. subtilis infections are present since, even if reported, they would be "invisible" at the international comparative level due to the coding used for classification of death causes. In the literature, only a few cases of infections due to B. subtilis are reported and only one retrospective study describes the isolation of antibiotic-resistant strains of B. subtilis.

The subject of our report is a 73-year-old male with chronic lymphocytic leukemia (leukocyte count, 46,000/mmc with 4% segmented forms, 92% lymphocytes, and 4% monocytes) who was admitted to the hospital because of high fever (40°C), mental confusion, and diarrhea (through the period of hospitalization, the patient had no central line in place). Prehospitalization treatment (over a month) with B. subtilis spores (Enterogermina) (EG) was discontinued upon the patient's admission to the hospital. On physical examination, the patient showed hepatosplenomegaly and multiple pulmonary thickenings were visible on the chest X ray. He had sluggish mentation and speech but no focal neurological deficits. Blood cultures performed in triplicate (on day 1) were positive for B. subtilis. Treatment with imipenem (days 1 to 16) apparently resolved the infectious episode, although mild fever persisted, possibly due to the lymphoproliferative disorder. After 2 weeks of hospitalization, the patient presented again with a high fever and mental confusion. Blood cultures were repeated (days 16 and 19), and B. subtilis was present in both cultures. Combined antibiotic therapy (ceftazidime, amikacin, and vancomycin, to all of which both strains were susceptible) was started, together with intravenously administered immunoglobulins, and the fever rapidly declined. Nevertheless, the patient showed progressive deterioration of his mental condition, still without focal neurological signs. At this stage, lymphoid cells were detected in the cerebrospinal fluid (cerebrospinal fluid was not cultured), and the patient died within a few days (day 25), probably due to central nervous system involvement. More at: http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/full/36/1/325

From Microbial Biorealm: The genome of Bacillus anthracis is 5,227,293 base pairs long with 5,508 predicted protein-coding regions. The genome of B. anthracis is highly homologous with the genomes of both B. cereus and B. thuringiensis which have also been sequenced. The genome of B. anthracis has only 141 proteins that do not have a match in the protein set of B. cereus. Almost all of the virulence factors associated with anthrax are coded on its two plasmids and, surprisingly, almost all of these genes have homologues in B. cereus. This suggests that these virulence-enhancing genes are not specifically unique to Bacillus anthracis, but rather are part of the common array of genes of the B. cereus group (of which B. anthracis, B. cereus, and B. thuringiensis are all a part). B. anthracis also seems to have a decreased capacity for the extensive carbohydrate metabolism seen in B. subtilis, but possesses the genes for the cleavage of extracellular chitin and chitosan, which confirms its close relationship with the insect pathogen B. thuringiensis.

Bacilli cause an array of infections from ear infections to meningitis, and urinary tract infections to septicemia. Mostly they occur as secondary infections in immunodeficient hosts or otherwise compromised hosts. They may exacerbate previous infection by producing tissue-damaging toxins or metabolites that interfere with treatment.

The most well known disease caused by bacilli is anthrax, caused by Bacillus anthracis. Anthrax has a long history with humans. It has been suggested [as] the fifth and sixth plagues of Egypt recorded in the Bible (the fifth attacking animals, the sixth, known as the plague of the boils, attacking humans). In the 1600s anthrax was known as the "Black bane" and killed over 60,000 cows. Anthrax has more recently been brought to our attention as a possible method for bioterrorism. The recent anthrax mailings have brought acute public attention to the issue and sparked extensive research into the devastating disease.

Anthrax is primarily a disease of herbivores who acquire the bacterium by eating plants with dust that contains anthrax spores. Humans contract the disease in three different ways. Cutaneous anthrax occurs when a human comes into contact with the spores form dust particles or a contaminated animal or carcass through a cut or abrasion. Cutaneous anthrax accounts for 95% of anthrax cases worldwide. During a 2-3 day incubation period the spores germinate, vegetative cells multiply, and a papule develops. Over the following days the papule ulcerates, dries and blackens to form the characteristic eschar. The process is painless unless infected with another pathogen.

Gastrointestinal anthrax is contracted by ingesting contaminated meat. (Or by eating dirt, as has been suggested by some people on some of the dumber health forums.) It occurs in the intestinal mucosa when the organisms invade the mucosa through preexisting lesions. It progresses the same way as cutaneous anthrax. Although it is extremely rare in developed countries it has a very high mortality rate.

Pulmonary anthrax is the result of inhaled spores that are transported to the lymph nodes where they germinate and multiply. They are then taken into the blood stream and lymphatics culminating in systemic arthritis which is usually fatal. More at:

http://biology.kenyon.edu/Microbial_Biorealm/bacteria/gram-positive/bacillus/bacillus.htm

From PubMed: A patient with acute myeloblastic leukemia (AML) developed septicemia due to Bacillus cereus with subsequent rhabdomyolysis and myoglobinuric renal failure. He died despite intensive care. Postmortem examination revealed diffuse muscle necrosis with infiltration of Gram-positive bacilli and widespread bacterial microthrombi in various organs. Septicemia associated with rhabdomyolysis has been described in 12 cases. This case represents the first reported case of B. cereus septicemia associated rhabdomyolysis. Renal failure and shock were considered to be the most important prognostic factors, and either direct infiltration or toxin of the bacteria was suggested to be the mechanism of rhabdomyolysis in sepsis. B. cereus can be one of the lethal organisms in immunocompromised patient such as the present case. Rhabdomyolysis should be considered when a patient with septicemia complains of muscle pain. Prompt hydration and correction of acidosis are important to prevent renal failure and shock. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2499725&dopt=Abstract

From Microbook by Peter C. B. Turnbull: Although anthrax remains the best-known Bacillus disease, in recent years other Bacillus species have been increasingly implicated in a wide range of infections including abscesses, bacteremia/septicemia, wound and burn infections, ear infections, endocarditis, meningitis, ophthalmitis, osteomyelitis, peritonitis, and respiratory and urinary tract infections. Most of these occur as secondary or mixed infections or in immunodeficient or otherwise immunocompromised hosts (such as alcoholics and diabetics), but a significant proportion are primary infections in otherwise healthy individuals. Some of these infections are severe or lethal. Of the species listed in Table 15-1, most frequently implicated in these types of infection is B cereus, followed by B licheniformis and B subtilis. Bacillus alvei, B brevis, B circulans, B coagulans, B macerans, B pumilus, B sphaericus, and B thuringiensis cause occasional infections. As secondary invaders, Bacillus species may exacerbate preexisting infections by producing either tissue-damaging toxins or metabolites such as penicillinase that interfere with treatment.

Bacillus cereus is well known as an agent of food poisoning, and a number of other Bacillus species, particularly B subtilis and B licheniformis, are also incriminated periodically in this capacity.

Bacillus cereus can cause two distinct types of food poisoning. The diarrheal type is characterized by diarrhea and abdominal pain occurring 8 to 16 hours after consumption of the contaminated food. It is associated with a variety of foods, including meat and vegetable dishes, sauces, pastas, desserts, and dairy products. In emetic disease, on the other hand, nausea and vomiting begin 1 to 5 hours after the contaminated food is eaten. Boiled rice that is held for prolonged periods at ambient temperature and then quick-fried before serving is the usual offender (such as at cheap Chinese restaurants), although dairy products or other foods are occasionally responsible. The symptoms of food poisoning caused by other Bacillus species (B subtilis, B licheniformis, and others) are less well defined. Diarrhea and/or nausea occurs 1 to 14 hours after consumption of the contaminated food. A wide variety of food types have proved responsible in recorded instances. More at: http://gsbs.utmb.edu/microbook/ch015.htm

Other similar articles (thousands pages of stuff):

Bacillus licheniformis Prosthetic Aortic Valve Endocarditis PDF file at: http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/reprint/33/11/3070.pdf#search='septicemia%20%20bacillus%20licheniformis'

U.S. Environmental Protection Agency – Biotechnology Program Under Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) at:

http://www.epa.gov/oppt/biotech/pubs/fra/fra005.htm

Applied and Environmental Microbiology – Toxigenic Strains of Bacillus licheniformis Related to Food Poisoning at:

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=10508100

Textbook of Bacteriology: http://textbookofbacteriology.net/B.cereus.html

Had enough? Now clearly those SBO-style probiotics that started this investigation do not contain all of the aforementioned bacilli, but they do contain some of them, and none of the stuff on the previous three pages is good for you – with some being downright deadly. This is the last article on SBOs for this newsletter because I think we have enough dirt on it now. If you want to risk your life messing around with eating soil-based microorganisms because some whacko says it cured him, that’s your choice folks. It’s been nice to know you…

Reader Q&A

Q: A few issues ago, you made some humorous remark about the government injecting all of us with tiny RFID (radio frequency identification) chips. That sounds very much like “The Number of the Beast” scenario where all people will be identified with a tattoo on their wrist (like a UPC code or something?). Were you serious about such conspiracy theories?

A: The old phrase is, “Just because you are paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get you.” J Now, as to whether this falls in line with biblical prophecy or any of those Edgar Cayce scenarios, I don’t want to go there in this newsletter. The point is, the RFID chips are being tested in forms small enough to pass through a hypodermic needle. Will the government do this? I do not know. Would it be in line with their intentions to control the masses? Yes. (If you think you live in a perfectly free country, think again, then we can have a socio-political debate off line.) We do know pets and children are currently being fitted (at request of owner/parent) with subdermal RFID chips. Here’s another one you might think about:

See the pretty capsule (below) that is barely larger than a Tylenol gelcap? Look closely. Would you swallow that? Well, that certainly is the intent of some allopaths and the maker of this device (Olympus, the camera folks, from their medical systems division). Inside this capsule is a tiny TV camera and wireless transmitter that sends pictures to a receiver outside your body so the nice doctors can view your gastro-intestinal tract (so they can prescribe a proton-pump inhibitor to reduce your acid production, or some similar excuse). The last time I had an upper GI, they stuffed a long fiber-optic cable down my throat to get pictures of my stomach and duodenum (and then they prescribed a medication I did not need).

Now we have almost a Fantastic Voyage scenario (minus the miniaturized pilots – remember that old TV sci-fi show from 1966?). Olympus is currently working to add components to this “pill” that will allow it to go places besides following the normal intestinal flow. A corkscrew thruster wrapped around the outside and a radio-controlled guidance system will give it power like a tiny submarine. It will have a specimen sampler and a drug delivery device, all the while being no larger than what you see in the photo. The miniaturization of electronics today is far more advanced than the average consumer realizes, and while I am sure that Olympus has only our best interests at heart, anything that can be used in a negative way will be so used by someone. And the most likely culprit for the misuse of technology is someone whose best interest is served by controlling the population – government and Big Business. Will they? You decide.

Here’s a couple more “controller” issues (not health related) that illustrate the government’s demand to control your lives. A couple years ago, the Oregon legislature passed a “road use tax” that would tax Oregon drivers for every mile they drive. They have not found a way to implement this, but they wanted more money and couldn’t raise the gas taxes, so nothing has happened yet, but it clearly shows their intentions. If they do find a way, I imagine most Oregon drivers will simply disconnect their odometers. The California legislature wants to pass a tax on home alarm systems. Not only would every home owner who has an alarm system have to pay their monthly fees to the alarm company, but would have to pay the state $40 a year for a “permit” to have such a system. They think this will help pay for emergency services. The guy next door, however, who has no alarm and uses the phone to dial 911 wouldn’t have such a fee, but the guy with the alarm would pay an unfair and stupid tax. The topper for such idiocy is the Washington state legislature, some of whom wish to tax people for collecting rainwater. What? They aren’t making enough money charging for metered water service? Now they want to make you pay for setting a barrel out in the back yard to collect whatever falls out of the sky? I strongly suggest that if these types of bills were even suggested here in South Dakota, there would be an armed revolution. Enough is enough political buttheads; get out of our lives and stay out!

Miscellaneous BS

I have been sifting through the past year’s issues of Science News, primarily for a book I am working on (Amber’s Never-ending Acronyms List), and numerous articles caught my eye as something you folks might be interested in. Here are a few snippets:

1. Industrial pollution has been linked to wheat diseases. Wheat is more vulnerable to fungal maladies when exposed to sulfur dioxide (industrial pollution). Science News, Vol.167, No.20, May 14, 2005 So good food comes without industry and bad food with it? Decisions, decisions...

2. U.S. consumers eat approximately 17 billion quarts of popcorn each year, the equivalent of more than 20 large movie theater buckets of popcorn per person. Science News, Vol.169, No.18, April 30, 2005 And we wonder why we’re all sick?

3. People who eat bagged salad might be getting more than they bargained for. Researchers have found that some ready-to-eat spinach contains a significant number of bacteria, many of which are resistant to antibiotics. “People assume that ‘ready-to-eat’ means that it’s clean” and relatively free of bacteria, says Sonja Walia of Oakland University in Rochester Hills, MI. Science News, Food Science. Vol.167, No. 26, June 25, 2005  Don’t believe, even for one minute, that what you get in any store is safe for immediate use. Wash all your veggies before consuming.

4. New research suggests that ethanol, the intoxicating ingredient in alcoholic beverages, may step up the virulence of particular bacterial species. The bacterium Acinetobacter baumannii is responsible for numerous infections, such as pneumonia, meningitis, and urinary tract infections… Science News, Biomedicine. Vol.167, No. 26, June 25, 2005 Perhaps having a drink to chase away those ill feelings is not so wise after all.

5. Farmers without Fungus: African peanut farmers can slash their exposure to a class of harmful fungal toxins by adopting several simple measures after the harvest. In many developing countries, the carcinogenic contaminants called aflatoxins are abundant in subsistence crops, including peanuts and cereals. Peanuts become tainted with aflatoxins during storage under hot, moist conditions that promote fungal growth. Insects feeding on the stored peanuts spread the aflatoxin-producing soil fungi and damage the shells that protect the edible kernels. Aflatoxins, which withstand cooking, occasionally cause rapid, deadly poisonings in people who have eaten contaminated foods. Several repeated doses gradually elevate the risk of liver cancer and, in children, impair growth and immune function… Science News, Vol.167, No. 24, June 11, 2005 You should note, here, that this is not just a problem in “developing countries.” It is a big problem right here too. Note the word “cereals” above. That, folks, means all grains.

6. Scientists in New Zealand have devised a breath test for detecting fungal lung infection. Using gas chromatography and mass spectroscopy, the team detected a substance called 2-pantylfuran in the breath of people infected with Aspergillus fumigatus but not in people presumed to be free of infection… Science News, Biomedicine, Vol.168, No. 19, November 5, 2005 Now what I want to know is why the folks in New Zealand know about fungus in the lungs when all the allopaths in this country simply call it lung cancer?

7. Livestock farmers usually feed their animals small doses of antibiotics to promote growth. The livestock typically shed a large share of the drugs in their feces, leading some researchers to question whether using this manure as fertilizer might lead to the uptake of antibiotics by crops or to the development of disease-resistant microbes. New studies validate both concerns… Science News, Environment, Vol.168, No. 22, November 26, 2005 We have touched on this one before. The veggies you eat might have antibiotics in them because of organic fertilizer, and what are antibiotics once again? Yes, mycotoxins! So you get it in your meat and veggies because farmers want their steers and their crops to grow faster so they can make more profits quicker. While the desire for profit might not be bad, hurting people to get it is (my judgment).

8. Breezes crossing California’s agricultural heartland, the Central Valley, can ferry farm chemicals to elevations high in the Sierra Nevadas. Mountain-water concentrations of endosulfan – a much-used Central Valley insecticide – are strong enough to threaten certain frogs and toads, a new laboratory study shows… The highest concentration killed every exposed animal among three species tested. At around 3 ppb, half the Western toads and Pacific tree frogs died. The animals that survived tended to be about two-thirds as big as usual…  Science News, Toxicology, Vol.168, No. 24, December 10, 2005 And you thought what you sprayed on your weeds stayed on your weeds?

9. Is Teddy a pollution magnet? Plush toys can accumulate potentially toxic air pollutants, a new study finds. The toys’ stuffing is virtually identical to absorbents used to collect volatile chemicals for lab analysis, notes Caitlin Corbitt of Chatham College in Pittsburgh… probed for 13 toxic pesticides and 7 flame-retarding polybrominated diphenyl ethers (PBDEs) in the fabric, padding, and core of stuffed animals… PBDE 47 was found in all toys and PBDE 99 was found in most – usually at values around 2-4 ppb. One toy labeled as made from recycled materials, however, carried a whopping 67,900 ppb of PBDE 47. The two PBDEs have been linked to learning impairments… Most [plush] toys also carried a residue of DDT, a long-banned insecticide, and pesticides used against termites… [with] concentrations of 100 to 400 ppb…Science News, Environment, Vol.168, No. 24, December 10, 2005  Now we know that it isn’t just our food but the toys our children routinely put in their mouths. And these toxins are not just collected from the air around us in our homes or yards – those materials had to have been polluted at the factory before the toy was assembled (especially the recycled one).

10. Let’s step away from Science News for now. I participated in the following survey and here is a brief look at the results.

Prescription medications are a common part of American life. Many people rely on them for a comfortable and productive life. However, some segments of the population report much higher use than others. Older Americans, for instance, are much more likely to regularly take prescription medications. This, of course, makes good sense considering how health problems increase with age. (Why? Cumulative toxins, not just age, but they wouldn’t know that.)

And then there is gender: While older men and women are equally likely to rely on prescription drugs, young women are more likely than young men to regularly take prescription medications. Moreover, for men, the largest increase in use occurs in the mid 50s, while for women this jump happens a bit earlier (mid 40s).

Money also comes into play when considering the use of prescription drugs. People with higher incomes are more likely to take prescription drugs regularly. They can more easily afford the price of prescription drugs, and are likely to have better health coverage than lower income Americans.

Herbal or natural remedies have become more popular in recent years. However, this popularity is not evenly distributed across all Americans. Though more than 60% of Americans do not use herbal or natural remedies, some groups do report fairly high levels of use. About 20% of young males (aged 18-24) use herbal remedies, while nearly 30% of Males and Females over 55 report daily use of herbal and natural products. The use of natural remedies also increases with income, as herbal and natural products can also be expensive.

Where you shop:

Think about that graph for a minute. I was in the “none of these” category (about 1% of the respondents). Look how many (over half) shop at Wal-Mart, Kmart, etc. Now ask yourself who has the greatest influence on what you buy? Do you think it is you? I suspect Wally World dictates what supplements you buy (based on brand availability), what style of clothes you wear (what’s in stock), what cosmetics you buy, the brand of house paint, etc. Why does this country do most of their shopping at mass merchandisers? Because we are too lazy to go to multiple stores if we can get what we want (want? No, tolerate!) at one location. I think this is true of our food choices too and that makes it one of the major reasons we have such poor choices in what we eat. That means we also let that same laziness dictate our state of health. Those mass merchandisers are more than happy to take advantage of our laziness because it means more money in their pockets. They also know they don’t have to stock the brand you want because you are more likely to buy what they do have instead of going to several other stores to find what you want. Think about it…

11. Disease Mongering is the effort by pharmaceutical companies (or others with similar financial interests) to enlarge the market for a treatment by convincing people that they are sick and need medical intervention. Typically, the disease is vague, with nonspecific symptoms spanning a broad spectrum of severity — from everyday experiences many people would not even call “symptoms,” to profound suffering. The market for treatment gets enlarged in two ways: by narrowing the definition of health so normal experiences get labeled as pathologic, and by expanding the definition of disease to include earlier, milder, and presymptomatic forms (e.g., regarding a “risk factor” such as high cholesterol as a disease in itself).

To coincide with the recent international conference in Australia on the corporate sponsored creation of disease — "disease mongering" — PLoS Medicine has published eleven articles devoted to how drug companies sell sickness. PLoS is the Public Library of Science. This set of articles consists of:

The Fight against Disease Mongering: Generating Knowledge for Action

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030191

Bigger and Better: How Pfizer Redefined Erectile Dysfunction

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030132

Medicine Goes to School: Teachers as Sickness Brokers for ADHD

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030182

Female Sexual Dysfunction: A Case Study of Disease Mongering and Activist Resistance

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030178

The Latest Mania: Selling Bipolar Disorder

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030185

Pharmaceutical Marketing and the Invention of the Medical Consumer

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030189

Combating Disease Mongering: Daunting but Nonetheless Essential

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030146

Giving Legs to Restless Legs: A Case Study of How the Media Helps Make People Sick

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030170

Cholinesterase Inhibitors: Drugs Looking for a Disease?

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030140

Disease Mongering in Drug Promotion: Do Governments Have a Regulatory Role?

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030198

Awareness and Attitudes about Disease Mongering among Medical and Pharmaceutical Students

http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030213

These are all worth reading and they give a lot of damning evidence, but they are too long to include here. I encourage you to go to those sites and absorb as much as you can. These folks are not quacks and they would like the get the truth (as allopathic as that might be) out to those who can do something about it (their peers and you). I also encourage you to visit their home page http://www.plos.org/ where you can access their various journals, including PLoS Biology, PLoS Medicine, PLoS Computational Biology, PLoS Genetics, PLoS Pathogens, and PLoS Clinical Trials, all on-line and without cost to you.

12. Bad new for the British. According to the August 2005 issue of Popular Science,  “…82% of U.K. shoppers said they would never buy a genetically altered banana, even if proven safe, even if doing so allowed the elimination of pesticides and other potentially harmful agricultural chemicals”. The bad news? There are currently more than 300 varieties of bananas available today. Until man started monkeying with hybridizing foods (which is a form of genetic manipulation), there was one banana type on this planet, and it is not the one sold in their supermarkets (or ours). Bananas have a similar history to corn, but aren’t nearly as dangerous.

13. And here’s one from the “I told you so” department:

Skeptics warn bird flu fears are overblown

Chicken Little alert?  Hysteria could sap money from worse health threats

By Rebecca Cook Dube

Doomsday predictions about bird flu seem to be spreading faster than the virus itself. But a small group of skeptics say the bird flu hype is overblown and ultimately harmful to the public’s health.

There’s no guarantee bird flu will become a pandemic, and if it does there’s no guarantee it will kill millions of people. The real trouble, these skeptics say, is that bird flu hysteria is sapping money and attention away from more important health threats.

It’s hard to blame people for feeling skittish... (it damn well wasn’t the public who blew this all out of proportion) …public health officials have vastly exaggerated the potential danger of bird flu.  “We don’t have anything that makes us think this bug will go pandemic,” Orent said. “Yes, it’s virtually certain in human history there will be another pandemic strain … but there’s no reason for it to happen now, or 10 years from now, or 20 years from now.” Full story at:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12358223/